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	<title>Comments on: MDC: Big changes ahead</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.bitstampede.com/2007/11/16/mdc-big-changes-ahead/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.bitstampede.com/2007/11/16/mdc-big-changes-ahead/</link>
	<description>Bits on the rampage: Eric Shepherd's blog.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 15:38:20 -0500</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: chocolateboy</title>
		<link>http://www.bitstampede.com/2007/11/16/mdc-big-changes-ahead/comment-page-1/#comment-82396</link>
		<dc:creator>chocolateboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 May 2008 17:23:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bitstampede.com/2007/11/16/mdc-big-changes-ahead/#comment-82396</guid>
		<description>&gt; If you can find a good syntax highlighting extension or PDF export system for Mediawiki that’s being maintained, I’d be surprised

What&#039;s wrong with the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SyntaxHighlight_GeSHi&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Geshi extension&lt;/a&gt;? It&#039;s actively maintained and is used by a number of high-profile Mediawiki sites, including Wikipedia.

&lt;blockquote&gt;This extension is being used on one or more of Wikimedia&#039;s wikis. It means that the extension is stable and works well enough to be used by such high traffic websites.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; If you can find a good syntax highlighting extension or PDF export system for Mediawiki that’s being maintained, I’d be surprised</p>
<p>What&#8217;s wrong with the <a href="http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SyntaxHighlight_GeSHi" rel="nofollow">Geshi extension</a>? It&#8217;s actively maintained and is used by a number of high-profile Mediawiki sites, including Wikipedia.</p>
<blockquote><p>This extension is being used on one or more of Wikimedia&#8217;s wikis. It means that the extension is stable and works well enough to be used by such high traffic websites.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: David Bolter</title>
		<link>http://www.bitstampede.com/2007/11/16/mdc-big-changes-ahead/comment-page-1/#comment-81571</link>
		<dc:creator>David Bolter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 20:08:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bitstampede.com/2007/11/16/mdc-big-changes-ahead/#comment-81571</guid>
		<description>@Steve Lee: I&#039;ve spoken to some dekiwiki devs and hopefully some accessibility work will be happening in the near future. See http://bugs.opengarden.org/view.php?id=3858</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Steve Lee: I&#8217;ve spoken to some dekiwiki devs and hopefully some accessibility work will be happening in the near future. See <a href="http://bugs.opengarden.org/view.php?id=3858" rel="nofollow">http://bugs.opengarden.org/view.php?id=3858</a></p>
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		<title>By: stevel</title>
		<link>http://www.bitstampede.com/2007/11/16/mdc-big-changes-ahead/comment-page-1/#comment-58984</link>
		<dc:creator>stevel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:14:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bitstampede.com/2007/11/16/mdc-big-changes-ahead/#comment-58984</guid>
		<description>&quot;After a lot of research&quot;

Eric: any chance that research is published somewhere?  We&#039;re looking at migrating from a MediaWiki to DekiWiki - and part of that involves some evaluation &amp; research.  I&#039;m hoping to be lazy and take a look at some of what you guys did for MDC.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;After a lot of research&#8221;</p>
<p>Eric: any chance that research is published somewhere?  We&#8217;re looking at migrating from a MediaWiki to DekiWiki &#8211; and part of that involves some evaluation &amp; research.  I&#8217;m hoping to be lazy and take a look at some of what you guys did for MDC.</p>
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		<title>By: Mozilla? ??? Deki Wiki</title>
		<link>http://www.bitstampede.com/2007/11/16/mdc-big-changes-ahead/comment-page-1/#comment-48467</link>
		<dc:creator>Mozilla? ??? Deki Wiki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 04:57:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bitstampede.com/2007/11/16/mdc-big-changes-ahead/#comment-48467</guid>
		<description>[...] Mozilla Developer Center ? Mediawiki? ???? ???? ????. ??? ?? Deki Wki? ?????? ??? ????? ???. ????? Mediawiki? wikipedia?? ???? wiki?? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Mozilla Developer Center ? Mediawiki? ???? ???? ????. ??? ?? Deki Wki? ?????? ??? ????? ???. ????? Mediawiki? wikipedia?? ???? wiki?? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: sheppy</title>
		<link>http://www.bitstampede.com/2007/11/16/mdc-big-changes-ahead/comment-page-1/#comment-48384</link>
		<dc:creator>sheppy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 16:07:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bitstampede.com/2007/11/16/mdc-big-changes-ahead/#comment-48384</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve got responses and thoughts on a lot of these comments, but am going to post a new blog post with those thoughts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve got responses and thoughts on a lot of these comments, but am going to post a new blog post with those thoughts.</p>
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		<title>By: Gc</title>
		<link>http://www.bitstampede.com/2007/11/16/mdc-big-changes-ahead/comment-page-1/#comment-48246</link>
		<dc:creator>Gc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 20:31:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bitstampede.com/2007/11/16/mdc-big-changes-ahead/#comment-48246</guid>
		<description>It certainly could be nice not to be limited by wiki markup and be able to use full xhtml, css, svg, etc.

From my exploration of the limited documentation I have not been able to find what the capabilities of the WYSIWYG style editor are.   Is there a &#039;edit source&#039; mode to edit the xhtml/etc. code directly?  Or do human editors that need to edit a page that cannot be edited with the WYSIWYG editor have to submit revisions with an external tool?

For example, is it possible to create per-page CSS for use in tables (where it is much less readable and maintainable to mark the style of each cell individually)?  That has been a holdup for introducing flowable, editable component block diagrams in html such as in this &lt;a href=&quot;https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=218589&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;mockup page&lt;/a&gt; (best viewed with Mozilla browsers) from &lt;a href=&quot;https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=334225#c0&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;bug 334225&lt;/a&gt; (&quot;CSS style rules for component stack diagrams, component block diagrams&quot;).

For anyone looking for prerequisites documentation, unfortunately the download links take you directly to a sourceforge download, not to a download description page.  (240MB is too much for some of us to wait to download without having a clue whether it will be able to run.)  Site search field didn&#039;t help much; I eventually had more success with off-site Google.

&lt;a href=&quot;https://help.mindtouch.com/Deki_Deployment/System_requirements&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https://help.mindtouch.com/Deki_Deployment/System_requirements&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://wiki.opengarden.org/Deki_Wiki/Installation_and_Upgrade&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://wiki.opengarden.org/Deki_Wiki/Installation_and_Upgrade&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://wiki.opengarden.org/Deki_Wiki/Installation_and_Upgrade/Installation_FAQ/Deki_Wiki_Dependency_Lists&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://wiki.opengarden.org/Deki_Wiki/Installation_and_Upgrade/Installation_FAQ/Deki_Wiki_Dependency_Lists&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It certainly could be nice not to be limited by wiki markup and be able to use full xhtml, css, svg, etc.</p>
<p>From my exploration of the limited documentation I have not been able to find what the capabilities of the WYSIWYG style editor are.   Is there a &#8216;edit source&#8217; mode to edit the xhtml/etc. code directly?  Or do human editors that need to edit a page that cannot be edited with the WYSIWYG editor have to submit revisions with an external tool?</p>
<p>For example, is it possible to create per-page CSS for use in tables (where it is much less readable and maintainable to mark the style of each cell individually)?  That has been a holdup for introducing flowable, editable component block diagrams in html such as in this <a href="https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=218589" rel="nofollow">mockup page</a> (best viewed with Mozilla browsers) from <a href="https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=334225#c0" rel="nofollow">bug 334225</a> (&#8221;CSS style rules for component stack diagrams, component block diagrams&#8221;).</p>
<p>For anyone looking for prerequisites documentation, unfortunately the download links take you directly to a sourceforge download, not to a download description page.  (240MB is too much for some of us to wait to download without having a clue whether it will be able to run.)  Site search field didn&#8217;t help much; I eventually had more success with off-site Google.</p>
<p><a href="https://help.mindtouch.com/Deki_Deployment/System_requirements" rel="nofollow">https://help.mindtouch.com/Deki_Deployment/System_requirements</a></p>
<p><a href="http://wiki.opengarden.org/Deki_Wiki/Installation_and_Upgrade" rel="nofollow">http://wiki.opengarden.org/Deki_Wiki/Installation_and_Upgrade</a></p>
<p><a href="http://wiki.opengarden.org/Deki_Wiki/Installation_and_Upgrade/Installation_FAQ/Deki_Wiki_Dependency_Lists" rel="nofollow">http://wiki.opengarden.org/Deki_Wiki/Installation_and_Upgrade/Installation_FAQ/Deki_Wiki_Dependency_Lists</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Walden</title>
		<link>http://www.bitstampede.com/2007/11/16/mdc-big-changes-ahead/comment-page-1/#comment-48239</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Walden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 19:55:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bitstampede.com/2007/11/16/mdc-big-changes-ahead/#comment-48239</guid>
		<description>Gérard: if it&#039;s not worse than the current situation, I don&#039;t see how that&#039;s a problem.  Also, while validation is a concern, I think getting the information across is a more important one (but it doesn&#039;t matter here anyway, because we&#039;re not robbing Peter to pay Paul).

So everything&#039;s stored as XHTML?  I&#039;m curious how well this roundtrips edits, because if it doesn&#039;t do so well it limits you to the flexibility that the WYSIWYG interface exposes.  I&#039;m also minimally concerned about consistent style (particularly for some of the things we attack with templates right now), but I guess the intent is that editors not have to think about that.  If you drop to source-editing mode, do you get a pretty-printed version that&#039;s more amenable to edits?

How do intrawiki links work at source level for preserving wiki location migration?

Does it have support for some form of a prebuilt page store, so that, say, I can copy the format of a CSS property page when documenting a new property on a new page?

What support is provided for articles intended to be read in series, or for books presented in chapters?

I&#039;m sure I have more questions to ask, but I should definitely put off asking them to a different time.  :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gérard: if it&#8217;s not worse than the current situation, I don&#8217;t see how that&#8217;s a problem.  Also, while validation is a concern, I think getting the information across is a more important one (but it doesn&#8217;t matter here anyway, because we&#8217;re not robbing Peter to pay Paul).</p>
<p>So everything&#8217;s stored as XHTML?  I&#8217;m curious how well this roundtrips edits, because if it doesn&#8217;t do so well it limits you to the flexibility that the WYSIWYG interface exposes.  I&#8217;m also minimally concerned about consistent style (particularly for some of the things we attack with templates right now), but I guess the intent is that editors not have to think about that.  If you drop to source-editing mode, do you get a pretty-printed version that&#8217;s more amenable to edits?</p>
<p>How do intrawiki links work at source level for preserving wiki location migration?</p>
<p>Does it have support for some form of a prebuilt page store, so that, say, I can copy the format of a CSS property page when documenting a new property on a new page?</p>
<p>What support is provided for articles intended to be read in series, or for books presented in chapters?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure I have more questions to ask, but I should definitely put off asking them to a different time.  <img src='http://www.bitstampede.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: nobody</title>
		<link>http://www.bitstampede.com/2007/11/16/mdc-big-changes-ahead/comment-page-1/#comment-48177</link>
		<dc:creator>nobody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 12:56:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bitstampede.com/2007/11/16/mdc-big-changes-ahead/#comment-48177</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m typing this on a machine with a white on black desktop theme -- that means the textarea for comments is white on white. Bad form and I&#039;d expect Mozilla people to understand problems like this!

The top menu at wiki.mindtouch.com relies on javascript. I can&#039;t seem to find a demo of dekiwiki, the best I can hope for is that it&#039;ll work without script as I regularly consult MDC for the DOM and Javascript materials.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m typing this on a machine with a white on black desktop theme &#8212; that means the textarea for comments is white on white. Bad form and I&#8217;d expect Mozilla people to understand problems like this!</p>
<p>The top menu at wiki.mindtouch.com relies on javascript. I can&#8217;t seem to find a demo of dekiwiki, the best I can hope for is that it&#8217;ll work without script as I regularly consult MDC for the DOM and Javascript materials.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay Goldman</title>
		<link>http://www.bitstampede.com/2007/11/16/mdc-big-changes-ahead/comment-page-1/#comment-48088</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Goldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 06:35:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bitstampede.com/2007/11/16/mdc-big-changes-ahead/#comment-48088</guid>
		<description>We run an internal MediaWiki for knowledge management within Radiant Core, and have been loosely working with the guys at MindTouch for quite a while now so we know Deki pretty well. I can say that Aaron and the crew have forgotten more about wikis than I&#039;ll ever learn, and that Deki is a far more mature and well maintained infrastructure than MediaWiki is. Our internal wiki is obviously much, much smaller than MDC, but we&#039;re considering porting over for many of the same reasons, and can&#039;t wait to have a tool to do most of it for us. For whatever it&#039;s worth, this gets my vote.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We run an internal MediaWiki for knowledge management within Radiant Core, and have been loosely working with the guys at MindTouch for quite a while now so we know Deki pretty well. I can say that Aaron and the crew have forgotten more about wikis than I&#8217;ll ever learn, and that Deki is a far more mature and well maintained infrastructure than MediaWiki is. Our internal wiki is obviously much, much smaller than MDC, but we&#8217;re considering porting over for many of the same reasons, and can&#8217;t wait to have a tool to do most of it for us. For whatever it&#8217;s worth, this gets my vote.</p>
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		<title>By: Gérard Talbot</title>
		<link>http://www.bitstampede.com/2007/11/16/mdc-big-changes-ahead/comment-page-1/#comment-47982</link>
		<dc:creator>Gérard Talbot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2007 16:24:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bitstampede.com/2007/11/16/mdc-big-changes-ahead/#comment-47982</guid>
		<description>Benoit,

I have complained loud about invalid markup code regarding the current MDC, regarding the webpages themselves and regarding the examples (having validation markup errors or using/relying on transitional DTD) shown for demonstration purposes in the webpages. Deki Wiki is not (will not be) an improvement in that regard. &lt;strong&gt;MDC currently does not teach by example&lt;/strong&gt; and the proposed changed is not an improvement.

Code validity, clear separation of content from presentation, triggering standards compliant rendering mode, semantic markup, properly structured markup code, CSS code reusability, etc.. are important and should always be important.

Many authors have said that XHTML is dead. Why do we keep authoring with XHTML served as text/html? A few years ago, mozilla.org style and markup guidelines were set: why MDC never followed such guidelines, authoring guidelines?

Transitional DTD: why is that in end of 2007?

Gérard</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Benoit,</p>
<p>I have complained loud about invalid markup code regarding the current MDC, regarding the webpages themselves and regarding the examples (having validation markup errors or using/relying on transitional DTD) shown for demonstration purposes in the webpages. Deki Wiki is not (will not be) an improvement in that regard. <strong>MDC currently does not teach by example</strong> and the proposed changed is not an improvement.</p>
<p>Code validity, clear separation of content from presentation, triggering standards compliant rendering mode, semantic markup, properly structured markup code, CSS code reusability, etc.. are important and should always be important.</p>
<p>Many authors have said that XHTML is dead. Why do we keep authoring with XHTML served as text/html? A few years ago, mozilla.org style and markup guidelines were set: why MDC never followed such guidelines, authoring guidelines?</p>
<p>Transitional DTD: why is that in end of 2007?</p>
<p>Gérard</p>
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